Josh Hoecherl and Jenny McIntosh in the studio
Newest episode, Episode 1

What if some of what we call good leadership is just creating dependence?

Co-hosted by Jenny McIntosh and Josh Hoecherl

From the newest episode

Four lines from Episode 1, word for word.

Josh
"If you're in a leadership position... and everything's going well, that's your first sign that you're missing something."
Jenny
"We're not there. We never will be there. There isn't a there."
Josh
"I might let you fall and scrape your knee, but I'm not going to let you lose your leg."
Jenny
"...be okay with hanging out in that mud for a bit. And enjoy the mud."

Watch the whole conversation

Jenny and Josh start where they both started: as people who liked being the one with the answers. They talk about answering questions before anyone asks them, the confidence that was partly a mask, and why, as Josh says, "it becomes easier to sit in the mud when you've sat in the mud."

Notes, quotes and the full transcript
Wait, though
"Throw out the window whatever assumptions you have about leadership. Just let yourself be open."

Every episode ends with a challenge for you to take into your week. This one is Jenny's, from Episode 1.

Every episode

Episode 2, coming soon

Episode 2, coming soon

Better thinking

If my job isn't to provide the answer, what am I trying to develop in people?

Episode 1 of Wait, Though

Episode 1

Questioning good leadership

What if the things we've always called good leadership are creating dependence?

What this show is about

Three ideas run through every conversation.

Think for yourself

Develop your own judgment rather than depending on someone else's answers.

Understand how others think

Different isn't necessarily wrong, deficient, resistant, or less capable.

Learn to think together

Strong organizations and relationships are people bringing different strengths and ways of thinking together.

Josh Hoecherl
Josh HoecherlFounder, Pinpoint Management

A sister and brother who both liked having the answers

Jenny spent many years in education, including middle school, where she learned what leadership feels like from the receiving end. Josh built a career on being the person with the answers.

Now they work together at Pinpoint Management, and they co-host this show. They don't always agree.

Jenny McIntosh
Jenny McIntoshVP of Development, Pinpoint Management